From nobody Tue Feb 4 20:11:41 2003 Newsgroups: alt.fan.elite Subject: Patches for E-TNK Organization: ESC Date: 04 Feb 2003 20:11:41 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Lines: 14 I intended to announce this on the Elite - The New Kind forums, but they appear to be down or gone right now, so I'll do it here. I've written a few little patches for the E-TNK source code, to do auto-saves and a few other handy things I wanted. You can get them at the URL below; I've split them up into separate files, one for each new feature. Feel free to use them and send me ideas on how they could be improved. -- From nobody Mon Feb 10 19:34:23 2003 Newsgroups: alt.fan.elite Subject: Re: TNK Pulled, but on what grounds really. References: Organization: ESC Date: 10 Feb 2003 19:34:23 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Lines: 52 "Barry Barcrest" writes: > If you wrote elite from the ground up and called it something else > then braben would have problems pulling it. You can't copyright > descriptive terms like SOAP and so the ship names are on dodgy > ground as they are just snake names that he has no hold over. The > ships are geometric shapes and so he couldn't have copyright on > thoose. How the hell can you copyright a dodecahydron? The scanner > design I agree is dodgy but come on he's come this for long enough. I think he'd have a case over some of those things from a 'look and feel' perspective. To write an Elite-type game without infringing upon Elite's copyright, you'd probably have to at least change the planet names, missions, ship shapes, scanner, and some other cosmetics. But you couldn't be expected to get rid of things like hyperspace or docking with space stations, since those things are common to many games. You'd have to write the code from scratch, of course. > Bloody hell the thing will be public domain soon then he can't say > anything. To be honest i think he can only ask that copyright parts > be removed and he would be in contest with bell over some of this > anyway.... Of course the biggest problem he'd have actually pursuing a copyright case is that TNK hasn't been making any money for its creators, so there's no pile of money to go after in civil court. So Bell has to count on the upstanding decency of Christian and the other Elite-clone developers to go along with him, since he really can't threaten them with much unless he has money to burn on pointless court cases. > All very dodgy. Seems to me there should be some sort of corollary to the copyright law that says, "If something that infringes on your copyright is being developed right out in plain sight in public for months/years, representing hours and hours of hard work on the part of its developers, and you do nothing to stop it until all their work is complete, you lose your turn." Or better yet, change the copyright length on computer software to something like ten years maximum, and making it non-transferable. How many programs are actually commercially profitable after that amount of time, anyway? Using the 75-year rule, and letting copyrights transfer all over the place through corporate sales and bankruptcies (try to figure out who owns the copyright on some Commodore stuff sometime) doesn't profit anyone. -- From nobody Tue Feb 11 06:21:45 2003 Newsgroups: alt.fan.elite Subject: Re: TNK Pulled, but on what grounds really. Organization: ESC Date: 11 Feb 2003 06:21:44 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Lines: 19 "Barry Barcrest" writes: > From what i've read it's only 25 years on published works and i'd > asume this includes software... 70 years for films only, so in 2009 > we would be clear. Well, I was being US-centric, of course; UK law might be involved in Elite too, for all I know. But I'm pretty sure that in the US it's 75 years on everything, and in 1998 that was extended 20 years for anything about to expire. Here's a good article on the whole idea: -- From nobody Tue Feb 11 18:31:11 2003 Newsgroups: alt.fan.elite Subject: Re: Patches for E-TNK Organization: ESC Date: 11 Feb 2003 18:31:11 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Lines: 12 "Barry Barcrest" writes: > Can we add these to X-Elite??? Feel free to do whatever you want with them, but get them soon. If E-TNK is going to be unavailable, I'll probably remove those patches soon too. -- From nobody Wed Feb 12 07:36:57 2003 Newsgroups: alt.fan.elite Subject: Re: Patches for E-TNK Organization: ESC Date: 12 Feb 2003 07:36:57 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Lines: 31 nospam@notathome.ntlworld.com (Corncrake) writes: > Thanks, got them ! > I share your frustrations over that "Mass locked" > out-of-scanner-experience thing :) > One of these days I must get round to a "disable it totally > key " patch !! That would be very easy, but I decided not to. After all, the whole point of the game (at least after you make enough money to equip your ship decently) is to shoot stuff. > Have you got a compiled/executable version I wonder ? > Hmm, I suppose this is a bad time to ask,, but if you have > not already got an email then one can live in hope ? maybe?? My executable is compiled for FreeBSD, and it's sort of broken right now. I got tired of flying to anarchies and having most of the ships refuse to attack me, so I patched it to make them all angry and as brave as possible. But some still won't attack me, so I must have missed something. I also changed witchspace so it randomly creates 3-5 Thargoids instead of 1-3, just for fun. These also are angry and ultra-brave, so that turned out to be a big mistake. They pulverize me in a matter of seconds. -- From nobody Wed Feb 12 07:45:25 2003 Newsgroups: alt.fan.elite Subject: Re: Elite TNK Mac OS X - Rest In Peace References: <120220031159582125%hallan@nospambtinternet.com> Organization: ESC Date: 12 Feb 2003 07:45:25 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Lines: 13 Hugh Allan writes: > If the source to Darkness Falls is released I'll be first in line to > port this sucker to the Mac, and we can keep Elite alive, because > nobody else but us is going to do it. I figured I'd offer to help port DF to Unix. Like you, TNK got me interested in C coding again, if just to write some small patches. -- From nobody Mon Feb 17 11:00:22 2003 Newsgroups: alt.fan.elite Subject: Re: TNK - help needed for a grey haired commander just out of retirement References: <86ea3f0.0302170555.262fc712@posting.google.com> Organization: ESC Date: 17 Feb 2003 11:00:22 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Lines: 16 adriangostling@yahoo.co.uk (Oh Great One) writes: > When my Amstrad 128 died and I purchased Elite for PC I was so > disapointed it was rubbish, now 15+ years later I discovered by > accident elite TNK 2 days before it was pulled, well done CP for > bringing an old commander out of retirement. I cannot get my energy > bomb to work and I'm on the first mission hunting around Reesdice > for the stolen ship - any tips. Dock at Reesdice, and hit the key (F6, I think) to bring up the planet info. At the bottom, there'll be a message for you. -- From nobody Tue Feb 18 06:03:58 2003 Newsgroups: alt.fan.elite Subject: Re: TNK - help needed for a grey haired commander just out of retirement Organization: ESC Date: 18 Feb 2003 06:03:58 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Lines: 20 adriangostling@yahoo.co.uk (Oh Great One) writes: > If I remember rightly are you the guy who has written some useful > patches, if so how do I install them (is so easy on live update !!!) If you're on Windows, I don't know. I think the patches should work, but I don't know how to apply them. If you're on Unix, you need the source files (which you're not supposed to have now, of course). Unpack the source files, and copy the patches into the same directory. Then do: for i in *.patch; do patch <$i; done Then compile and install as normal. -- From nobody Mon Feb 24 07:20:06 2003 Newsgroups: alt.fan.elite Subject: Re: Elite TNK References: <86ea3f0.0302240230.31945cf1@posting.google.com> Organization: ESC Date: 24 Feb 2003 07:20:05 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Lines: 11 adriangostling@yahoo.co.uk (Oh Great One) writes: > My Galactic Hyperspace won't work, I press G then H and nothing > happens, Try Ctrl-H. -- From nobody Mon Feb 24 19:58:09 2003 Newsgroups: alt.fan.elite Subject: Re: Constrictor mission References: Organization: ESC Date: 24 Feb 2003 19:58:09 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Lines: 17 "Ian McCall" writes: > Fine, over to Arexe we go only to be told that the Constrictor was > fitted with a galactic hyperdrive and used it. Fine. Use a galactic > hyperdrive and.... > ...nothing. Can't find it anywhere. Where the hell is the ship? After using his galactic hyperdrive, he hyperspaced to one of the planets within the 7.0 range of a full tank of fuel. Make a list of all the planets within range of where you enter the galaxy (ORORRA?) and visit them all until you find the right one. -- From nobody Thu Feb 27 06:50:32 2003 Newsgroups: alt.fan.elite Subject: Re: Playing on Linux? References: Organization: ESC Date: 27 Feb 2003 06:50:32 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Lines: 22 ras2 writes: > I seem to have gotten a bit lost in all the various versions, > projects, emulators and whatnot, so I'm trying to get an idea of > which versions people play on Linux. I'm on FreeBSD, but the versions are the same. I've played Elite:TNK, which is a native version compiled from C code, and is almost perfectly true to the old 8-bit versions, except that it has more color, textured ships and other objects, and it doesn't slow way down when stuff explodes. :-) I've also played the C64 version in the Vice emulator. This works fine, and it has the added advantage of the emulator's snapshot function, so you can save a snapshot of your game at any time, instead of having to be safely docked. In every other way, E:TNK is superior, but if you don't already have it, you're out of luck there. -- From nobody Thu Feb 27 07:28:15 2003 Newsgroups: alt.fan.elite Subject: Re: Press ' i ' for info. Where is it? References: <1hrr5v874bh2nlu5g2oifcbfkee1giofng@4ax.com> <56tr5vs0m8kgtq0o7kti15th3ehdod4mri@4ax.com> Organization: ESC Date: 27 Feb 2003 07:28:14 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Lines: 24 Lucian Wischik writes: > I vageuly remember that ships started out as 2x2 pixels when they > were very distant. Then they got a bit closer and became just 1x1 > pixel. Then they got closer and became more recognisable. It worked something like that on the C64 version. When a ship first appeared, it'd just be a dot, which on the C64 in multicolor 160x200 mode would really be 2 pixels wide. Then when the ship got closer, it'd sort of disappear, because the game would start trying to actually draw it, but wouldn't put enough on the screen to see very well. It's hard to describe, but if you stopped moving, you could see it as kind of a distortion, since it wouldn't be drawn constantly or smoothly at all. One good way to shoot things at a distance back then was to target a missile and then start aiming. When the missile beeped, you knew you were pointed correctly, and started firing. Then re-target the same missile, and move on to the next target. -- From nobody Thu Feb 27 07:44:59 2003 Newsgroups: alt.fan.elite Subject: Re: Elite - Status report References: Organization: ESC Date: 27 Feb 2003 07:44:57 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Lines: 35 Daniel Durrant writes: > I know I'm ranting but this is a matter which could be SO beneficial > to everyone here if conducted reasonably. I don't see how. I'm fairly new to the 'scene' here, having subscribed to the newsgroup just a few weeks before the controversy, but it seemed pretty obvious to me right from the start that the end result was predetermined. I assumed the entire conversation was just for looks. At no time did I ever think Come on, shareware? Most shareware products don't make much money. We're talking about a reproduction of a 20-year old game (well done, but still), the original version of which can be downloaded from 100 different places and played on a dozen different emulators. And it's supposed to bring in enough money to split three ways and be worth the trouble? Not a chance. It all seems pretty cut-and-dried to me. Christian wrote E:TNK knowing that it violated a copyright, and he was very up-front about that. David has every right to assert his copyright, and he did so, and Christian immediately pulled the game. People were disappointed, but not surprised, and everything was cool. Then for some reason it became necessary to start trying to shift blame where none existed in the first place, presumably to mollify users who would be likely to buy future Elite versions. I can't blame Christian for getting miffed (if he is) by the suggestion that he's somehow keeping E:TNK from being available, when he was giving it away for free until stopped. -- From nobody Thu Feb 27 12:24:14 2003 Newsgroups: alt.fan.elite Subject: Re: Elite - Status report Organization: ESC Date: 27 Feb 2003 12:24:14 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Lines: 25 "Ian McCall" writes: > Just a guess here but I don't think the issue is money, or at least > not money derived from shareware fees. I think the shareware tag is > to ensure the game is regarded as proprietary and copyright. If so, that makes no sense. All software is copyright, unless you specifically release it into the public domain. Putting a price tag on it doesn't increase the validity of the copyright one bit. There are plenty of license schemes out there that do a fine job of retaining copyright while allowing free distribution and code re-use. What insisting on a shareware release *does* do is ensure that nothing will ever happen unless all the parties involved work together on it. Look, I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade here. If David, Ian, Christian, and whoever else is involved can form some sort of ad-hoc company to sell E:TNK and make a few bucks off it, that's great. I just don't think that's possible, for various reasons, and I don't think it's the point anyway. -- From nobody Thu Feb 27 20:13:16 2003 Newsgroups: alt.fan.elite Subject: Re: Playing on Linux? Organization: ESC Date: 27 Feb 2003 20:13:16 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Lines: 21 ras2 writes: > I just installed Vice. Very nice. It even emulates the long loading > times... > Whoo. My first relatively real game of Elite in ... twelve years or > so: Jumped to Diso, crashed into two asteroids and then got killed > by some pirates (I should probably see if I can get the keyboard set > up right. And buy a joystick). No need for a joystick; it's got great keyboard controls. When I play PC games that allow the keyboard to be reconfigured, I usually assign things the same as Elite had them. S and X for up and down, comma and period to spin left and right, space to accelerate, slash to decelerate, and A to fire. -- From nobody Tue Mar 4 20:38:03 2003 Newsgroups: alt.fan.elite Subject: Re: freeware References: Organization: ESC Date: 04 Mar 2003 20:38:01 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Lines: 26 dforemanuk@yahoo.co.uk (Daniel Foreman) writes: > If DB was to turn Elite into Freeware that allows the code to be > altered and distributed freely correct? Would this then, if original > elite where to become freeware, mean that other companies could then > make games called Elite and get away with just saying "well I > based it on the freeware version, not the frontier series"? > After all isn't announcing a game as freeware as good as giving > up your claim to it? Not necessarily. Freeware isn't a technical term; it's a vague concept that people use to refer to all sorts of software that's free of charge, but there are dozens of licenses that could apply to such software. Software can be free of charge and yet have many restrictions. There's no relationship between the price of the software and the strength of the copyright. A whole pile of different licenses can be found here: . Many of them allow code to be modified, redistributed, improved upon, and even profited upon by others, yet they allow the original creator to retain his copyright. -- From nobody Sat Mar 8 15:43:03 2003 Newsgroups: alt.fan.elite Subject: Re: Virus Hell ! W32.Yaha.k@mm.enc References: <3e67a5c0$0$57460$1b62eedf@news.euronet.nl> <874r6f8iv5.fsf@gvdnet.dk> <3E69FA7> Organization: ESC Date: 08 Mar 2003 15:43:03 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Lines: 22 Kegs writes: > "Dunny" writes: > > Interesting that the headers from your message proclaim that you > > posted using OE 6 then! > Erm, no they don't, see? His previous message, the one that professed sorrow for the feet of those using Windows, did: >>>> Message-ID: >>>> X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 >>>> Oh I do feel so sorry for you poor soles who are still using >>>> Microsoft operating systems - Since I moved to Linux [snip] -- From nobody Mon Mar 10 17:56:14 2003 Newsgroups: alt.fan.elite Subject: Re: Elite in 24 hours References: <3e60e0ce.750964@news.dsl.pipex.com> <8qt8a.12201$no1.97708224@news-text.cableinet.net> <3e6499d8$0$19301$afc38c87@news.easynet.co.uk> <3e6505c3.838461@news.dsl.pipex.com> <3e67c4a1$0$19305$afc38c87@news.easynet.co.uk> <3e686a55.446159@news.dsl.pipex.com> <87adg78np8.fsf@gvdnet.dk> <3e68a30a.920589@news.dsl.pipex.com> <87y93r6t34.fsf@gvdnet.dk> <3e68d7bf.180179@news.dsl.pipex.com> <87ptp36m3u.fsf@gvdnet.dk> <874r6d3k0i.fsf@gvdnet.dk> Organization: ESC Date: 10 Mar 2003 17:56:13 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Lines: 18 dylan@vexed2.alioth.net (Dylan Smith) writes: > Just to make it better, I'll combine it with perl: > #!/usr/bin/perl > use strict; > > for (my $i=0; $i < 250; $i++) Bah, no self-respecting perl programmer would write that, when he could do: for (0..250){ -- From nobody Fri Apr 18 19:59:49 2003 Newsgroups: alt.fan.elite Subject: Re: Elite TNK References: <20030418191249.18809.00000209@mb-m11.aol.com> Organization: ESC Date: 18 Apr 2003 19:59:49 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Lines: 16 derektorrance@aol.com (Derek torrance) writes: > I am trying to complete the first special mission but cannot find > the ship, I am currently in Galatic chart 2 after a tip that it > hyperspaced. any Ideas? I have been searching for it now for seven > days..... Go to the system where you entered the galaxy. Make a list of all the planets within range of one jump, and visit each of them. When you dock at each one, check the 'system info' screen (one of the F keys) for the special message.